voting for A class payout

magnumandthor · Expert Poster

voting for A class payout

Babbz987 · Expert Poster

it will not effect any other class but the A class and the money to pay the experts is only coming from the expert sign up fees not the other riders.

admin · Pro Poster

Correct!

With a few riders it would men less $$ to the winner. However, if paying back further encourages more riders to race, in the long run the winner will earn more $ as there would be more in the payout pool.

If there are 6 A riders and Kiniry and Dougherty are 1 and 2 the other four guys pretty much know they have little chance of earning any $. But, if 3rd and 4th get paid it gives them incentive to race. After a while they lose interest in racing for 3rd or 4th as there is no reward. This is where we are now!

Imagine 20 guys in the A class and the top 13 get paid. It would make the racing better all the way thru the pack, and different riders would have a better chance of making a few $$ from week to week. I think anyone in the A class can battle for a chance to finish 12 or 13 out of 20 and make a buck and, the top guys would make more than they are now with 3-5 riders a week.

hennermx · Amateur Poster

As a older and slower A rider I will agree with you 100% on your statement but with that being said how do you suggest getting more A riders to participate we are spread very thin with so many choices of where to race from week to week and riders trying to be loyal to favorite tracks and special events. Do you promote more am's to move up or do you come up with a pay scale for all riders to see what they would make if there were X amount of riders per race. Just curious on how to try and fix the growing concern of the small expert turnouts.

KJ790 · Expert Poster

I think you would see more experts in general if they paid back further. For at least the last 10 years I have seen 3/4 of the Ams that get bumped up to expert quit racing because they couldn't make any money and they get frustrated. Maybe if they paid back further you would see less guys hanging it up as soon as they turn expert.

vinnie · Expert Poster

it wasnt any different 20 years ago when rice, stratton and nessell where getting the the top three every week. the rest of us were riding our butts off for the last payback if it was possible. thats just the way of the world folks. in a competitive sport...not everyone can win.

Babbz987 · Expert Poster

Spreading the money further is just going to drive the top 3-4 A riders to other districts. The reason for lack of expert turn outs isnt because you dont pay back far enough its for one the economy is shot and most experts are kids like myself doing it on there own dime and only go to the tracks that they like or that are within reasonable/ affordable driving distance. Another big reason for A guys to go to other districts is because everyone else pays 200% and they have a bigger expert turn outs guarenteed. My opinion if you want to turn around the expert turn outs put up some cash 200% payout and pay on the same scale that you always have! That way when you work for a moto win you actually feel like you got something out of it.............

Matt Babbitt...............

hennermx · Amateur Poster

I agree with all of you Matt is right with the economy and the cost of bikes and parts and fuel for a rider at his level on a shoe string budget there looking to make money bottom line and totally understandable there is no room to argue with him. I also agree with KJ and admin on the theory behind there statement but with that being said you cant take away from the top guys to give to the slower just to attract more riders it will never work. I also agree with Vin as I grew up threw the Berger, Stratton, carpenter time frame and unfortunately what once was a competitive sport a do or die ride in any condition sport has been turned into a sport that caters to the family hobby weekend warrior some because of the economy some because the organizations in new York have created it to be this way. I'm not saying that in a bad way we as people choose our own paths and make our own decisions. But once was 2 districts trying to produce the fastest riders in new york has turned into many districts trying to survive in a economy that is in the toilet. I don't have the answer to the problem but I think somebody that has been around and seen the changes understands why things are the way they are can be creative enuff to fix the dieing breed of local experts it won't be easy and I'm sure as always a lot of people will have negative opinions but in the end go back to the roots of the sport and look at the things like spectators they all wanna watch a big expert battle with that follows all younger riders wanting to be a expert rider in return will encourage more riders to move up or self promote to be one of them in return bigger A class more spectators = more money = happy riders and a healthy sport.

gwhameister · Expert Poster

All of your guys comments are 100% spot on.....Talk of weak economy etc etc......Just to add some fuel to the fire.... not every rider can afford to race more than 1 class. To make it more affordable how about discounting the racing fees to help promote more riders in ALL classes. Ex. 1 moto- $25.... 2 motos- $40.... 3 motos- $55....Maybe this will help get more riders in All classes including the AM riders as myself who race for plastic. This might help raise more money to help with paybacks in A classes.....food for thought....

Sluiter242 · Amateur Poster

There are quite a few good riders moving up to the A class next year.....many already have. Usually after a lap or so the "racing" in the A class isnt very good to watch. There is occasionally a battle here & there but most of the time it looks like a cho cho train. I'm not saying anything to disrespect our A riders......a pro race looks a lot like that after a few laps too. The question, I believe, was how to attract more racers to our A class and I think the answer is to pay back more places. I realize this will in some cases reduce the payout for the winnier but I think it will encourage more people to come race in the A class as well as better racing through the whole moto. If it works an more people are showing up for the A class it might not reduct the payout much at all from the current level. Sure, the same 1 or 2 riders might check out but I think you'll see some great battles for 2nd, 3rd, 4th places.

Matt Sluiter (not Ryan)

bam2122 · Expert Poster

I know many people might get up set but nothing against the older crowd but how about may be only 1-3 money classes?? Maybe a Open A and 250 A class and possibly a +40 A class. Maybe a few more +25 and +30 guys will say hey joes running open A and i beat him last week maybe I'll sign up open A which means more riders in the class along with more money for pay back and poss. 200% pay back like matt said??

marko104 · Expert Poster

There are too many districts in NY now...

magnumandthor · Expert Poster

but i dont want to have to drive over 2 hours every weekend either to go to a track.

now if your trying to pay out top 3, and a 200% payout, and only 5 show up, where is the extra money going to come from?
granted, we all would like a bigger class to race in, but its a dying sport right now, dont think its just our district, but all over.

even the L/L qualifiers didnt have much more than a 1/2 gate for some

motorider419 · Pro Poster

msc pays top 8 regardless of turnout. that includes top 8 in novice am and expert. granted 8th place in expert might only be 10 bucks but hey its something

motorider419 · Pro Poster

RE: voting for A class .

jam · Expert Poster

voting for A class payout

magnumandthor · Expert Poster

how is the turnout at msc compared to cny???

motorider419 · Pro Poster

20+riders in open A lights A and all plus classes! makes it way more competitive

wny713 · Novice Poster

This is an interesting discussion... and is an issue in WNY as well.

LOTS of really valid points here and a polite discussion... you all seem to be smarter/more civil than the board posters in WNY.

First off - in the above example of 20 riders, only 7 riders would be paid on a 1-for-3 schedule... not 13 as previously stated.

Second - MSC has a much greater and more affluent population to pull from. Average class sizes... 125A - 7.9, 250A - 17.2, +25A - 8.4, +30A - 8.8. While this is certainly more than we see in CNY or WNY it is not 20+.

Here's my old expert / former promoter two cents on the whole thing.

I don't think I ever went to any races because they paid well... and I used to be fast enough to get paid. Back when I "cared" enough to go that fast- all I cared about was the competition and getting better. From my personal point of view, I'm not sure that added purse money will bring more experts to the races. Admittedly, my situation may be different because I didn't really get to race until after college. This mindset could certainly be different for younger kids as they may need money to keep going. (Then I see how Matt has spent probably the cost of a new bike to turn his big truck into a monster truck and figure he's got enough money to race whatever / whenever / wherever he feels like.)

Let's assume the young-ins need purse money to keep going. It's been about 8 yrs since I've been in the money... but it seems the money currently available at local races isn't enough to keep anyone doing anything. As a 3-5 place guy I used to make about $200-300 per weekend - cool! Do the winners even get that much now? If the younger guys need the money, then I'm thinking the purse needs to be raised AND pay-back needs to go deeper. How can we ask the struggling promoters to do this? I hate to say it, but nobody is lining the fences to watch +25A, +30A, +35A, +40A, +45A, +47.5A, +50A..... the promoters should take the money from the guys that don't need it and put it towards the guys they should be paying to put on a show. If a guy my age needs the $40 to get home from the races, he needs to learn to budget better or re-evaluate what he does for a living.

If you want more peeps per class I think there are two ways to make this happen. First off - there needs to be less classes and peeps need to be moved up sooner. We have too many classes in WNY and CNY seems to be worse with their 37 different age classes. Do you want to RACE or not? Participation awards are for pee-wee soccer. If you want to race, quit making extra classes so that everyone can be a winner (or make money) and make it so people have to race each other. Less classes means we'd condense the ridership, and we could probably have longer motos with a shorter wait between motos! Since the novice and beginner classes are already big, when folks are moved up sooner it will make the Am and Exp classes bigger... which will ultimately make these people faster whether they like it or not AND increase the pot for the expert classes - yes! (One caveat - with less classes offered there could less triple classing and so multi-class discounts may disappear.)

The second way to get more riders per class (expert or otherwise) would be to have less districts OR have more inter-district cooperation. This isn't working in WNY due to bad feelings between the groups and the resultant propaganda distorting rider views. I'm hopeful that I can get the riders to rally behind bringing things together, but right now it looks grim.

I'll that crap aside... I might call the guy with the 07 YZ450 because I want to build a DTX bike. MX has gotten really boring since I don't have anybody to race against so I figure I'll get enjoyment out of learning to do something different - back to the novice class for me!